thebagdoll, HeadThreadz

17 Jun

Reader comment:

Ok this etsy seller claims THESE items that she purchased under her first shop as her OWN
(I know this because I am one of them… paypal gave me all the information I needed to trace thebagdoll.etsy.com to missindie.etsy.com and headthreadz.etsy.com)
She bought these as thebagdoll.etsy.com
http://www.etsy.com/transaction/28635467
http://www.etsy.com/transaction/25164759
http://www.etsy.com/listing/39852100/popcorn-slouch-hat-pattern-crochet
AND
in her shop (read the copy) She says they are ALL her own original designs… Even claims copyright rights!
http://www.etsy.com/listing/48228453/the-trellis-net-headband-in-old-blue
http://www.etsy.com/listing/48032248/the-mad-hatters-top-hat-adult-size
http://www.etsy.com/listing/41581406/the-bubble-beanie-in-teal

Worse still, she has been doing this for years! Read this blog!
http://frayedattheedges.blogspot.com/2008/05/oy-long-bar-bat-mitzvah-yesterday-in.html

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43 Responses to “thebagdoll, HeadThreadz”

  1. NotSurprised June 17, 2010 at 8:32 am #

    Missindie & Headthreadz are also chronic tag abusers.

    MissIndie was told in the critique section of the forums last year she was abusing her tags (page 2)….yet she continues. I am so sick and tired of playing by the rules and others in my categories CHEAT!
    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6130106&page=2

    Stealing ideas and patterns from others and claiming them as your own is really low. I see a few other etsy “designs” in these shops.

  2. NotSurprised June 17, 2010 at 9:01 am #

    MissIndie also had a pattern shop called MissIndiedesigns. It’s gone……was there a few days ago. I found it cached at Goggle. Selling the mad hatter pattern that clearly is not hers.
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bcNgsQjDUhcJ:www.etsy.com/shop/MissIndieDesigns+missindiedesigns+%40+etsy&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Hat pattern belongs to ficklefiberdiva who sold this pattern for the first time in May of ’08.
    http://www.etsy.com/transaction/9004830

  3. box o' cookies June 17, 2010 at 9:03 am #

    not vintage.
    http://www.etsy.com/listing/40484590/drink-apple-juice-because-oj-simpson
    (um..your shirt is referencing something that happened in 1994!)

    seller is on front page (w/ a different item) right now.

    p.s. sorry to be off-topic.

  4. uh-huh June 17, 2010 at 9:18 am #

    I also tried to report the oj shirt after being annoyed at NKOTB being “vintage” now (wtf) but kept having site issues.

  5. Sara June 17, 2010 at 10:38 am #

    Claiming the design is her own is the bad, but otherwise I don’t see what the problem is? Because you can’t copyright a knitting/clothing design pattern, I don’t know that you can copyright that headband pattern either to be honest.

    I mean, the pattern itself is copyrighted but she is selling things made from the pattern which is perfectly legal.

  6. Cosmic Yuk June 17, 2010 at 11:11 am #

    If you want to limit the use of your pattern, don’t you have to state it somewhere (like the listing) that you only give limited use, or personal use only?

    I realize the pattern itself cannot be copied and distributed or sold and that copyright is granted automatically, but none of the listings even state that much, nor do they limit the use of the items made with the pattern.

    I know TheBlackApple had an awful time when her doll pattern was provided on Martha Stewart’s website after she was on her show because there was no disclaimer on the pattern at all.

    I know it sucks, and I don’t know all the legalities involved, but logic would tell you that you can’t provide a pattern to the public and not expect someone to capitalize on it somehow.

    Just by her wording, stating that it is an original design, but not specifically stating it’s HER original design, although she made it tells me she is very cagey and probably looks for these little loopholes; people who don’t specifically state the use of their pattern.

  7. Sara June 17, 2010 at 11:22 am #

    Honestly even a disclaimer means nothing, I think – you just can’t legally prevent someone from making and selling items based on your pattern.

  8. Bedazzled VONdom June 17, 2010 at 11:26 am #

    “I know TheBlackApple had an awful time when her doll pattern was provided on Martha Stewart’s website after she was on her show because there was no disclaimer on the pattern at all.”

    I see two disclaimers on the pattern. Were they added after the fact? I’m a bit surprised MS would be that lax, legal wise.

    “This template is for personal use only, not for commercial use.”

    and

    “This pattern is for private use, not commercial use.”

    http://images.marthastewart.com/images/content/web/pdfs/2008Q2/tvs_3128_031108_dolltemplate1.pdf

  9. Sara June 17, 2010 at 12:03 pm #

    But those statements (with regard to knitting patterns and clothing patterns anyway) are just statements, they have no legal standing.

  10. Andrea June 17, 2010 at 12:18 pm #

    e-lawyer is on the case!

  11. Cosmic Yuk June 17, 2010 at 12:46 pm #

    Yes, those disclaimers were added after the fact (referring to TheBlackApple).

    I’m not sure if I read it in the forums (probably) but if I remember correctly it led to her blog where she posted about it.

    http://theblackapple.typepad.com/inside_a_black_apple/2008/03/just-in-case-re.html

    And yeah, I know disclaimers only discourage the honest, but somehow in my mind, when I see someone doing something questionable, they look that much worse when it’s really clearly stated not to do it.

    Right now she has an excuse “Oh, I didn’t see any disclaimer, I didn’t know it was wrong”. With a clear disclaimer in the listing, she has no excuse. Deliberate as opposed to opportunistic.

    Obviously not ethical in either case.

  12. Sara June 17, 2010 at 1:05 pm #

    Well the thing about it being ethical is that in the US when you sell a pattern you are legally selling the right to make and sell items from it. That is part of the money you’re getting for selling your pattern, or having it published, or whatever. So to me it’s not a moral issue – if a clothing designers or knitting designers don’t want people to sell things based on their designs, they shouldn’t sell the designs.

    Just because a pattern maker doesn’t *want* others to sell things made from their pattern doesn’t confer on them the moral right to prevent it.

  13. Sara June 17, 2010 at 1:38 pm #

    Reselling the pattern itself, now that’s illegal (and unethical, as the right to resell the pattern itself was not conferred upon the buyer).

  14. Etsy Person June 17, 2010 at 1:56 pm #

    This is an original design. 100% handmade with great care by me.
    _____
    This is the actual disclaimer from the shop. IF you want to get technical, she does not state its “her” design, only that it is an “original design”.
    Yes, an original design that she stole.

  15. wahwah June 17, 2010 at 3:31 pm #

    She is a freaking thief and I wouldn’t buy air from her if I was suffocating.

  16. Molls June 17, 2010 at 3:45 pm #

    As I understand it, when you buy a pattern, you are not automatically permitted to sell the item you made using the pattern. This blog has some interesting information about copyright laws.

    http://knittingforprofit.com/blog/an-update-on-knitting-pattern-copyrights/

  17. Stephanie June 17, 2010 at 4:52 pm #

    I was informed that she was selling a hat earily similar to my pattern. I called her on it and she claimed she rewrote the pattern because when she made it with my directions it was the size of a childs hat. If she had followed the guage it is an adult hat. Why can’t someone just come up with their own original designs. If they have any artistic ability it can be done. She just took the easy and dishonest way out.

  18. Sara June 17, 2010 at 5:03 pm #

    Here is a letter from the copyright office concerning sewing patterns. What is copyrighted about them is the printed pattern itself and the design of the envelope, not the design of the garment. There is legislation in Congress now that may change that, allowing clothing designs and patterns to be copyrighted, but it is not law as yet.

    http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/CopyrightLaw/Patterns/docs/RegisterOfCopyrightsLetter.pdf

  19. Sara June 17, 2010 at 5:13 pm #

    If you post a design on the internet, or sell someone a design, unless it has artwork which can stand outside the utilitarian design of the garment (in this case, some actually fairly generic hats with no artwork), you are legally allowing someone to make something to sell from the design. If you don’t want anyone to use your designs, you must not publish them.

    It’s because as of now, clothing patterns/designs (and I understood knitting designs as well) are considered utilitarian. This makes some sense to me; if the legislation passes congress where will the line be drawn between copyrightable pattern and general useful uncopyrightable garments? Will someone be able to copyright the basic design of a t-shirt?

  20. 1come1n9eace June 17, 2010 at 5:36 pm #

    Sara, I understand where you’re coming from, but there are a zillion shapes, styles and attitudes of Tshirts. It’s like saying who can copyright the design of a chair?
    I was talking specifics. And this person was knowingly buying patterns, making the items, and posting them as her own. Stealing them …. yes although cagily claiming them as her own.
    She thinks the Etsy rules do not apply to her.
    And as was said earlier, she is a “tag stuffer”, and continually harasses honest sellers, either by “in your face” tactics, or secretly…
    by stealing
    You can say that she has rights. But what about moral rights?
    Or did I just open another can of stinky fish?

  21. Sara June 17, 2010 at 6:15 pm #

    The tag-stuffing sucks, no doubt.

    I guess I just don’t see it as a moral issue, because as much as you might want the right to limit use of your pattern, selling it to someone else confers on them the right to make things from it and sell them.

    It’s like, if I bought felt from someone that they had hand-dyed, and made a flower and sold it, you wouldn’t be complaining about the felt-maker’s moral right to keep me from selling the item, would you?

    The two sellers have the same moral right because they have the same legal right.

    Pattern designers think they *should* have the right to limit use of their work, but they *don’t* have that right, so IMO there’s nothing morally wrong with doing something perfectly within the spirit and letter of the law. For me it’s worse to do what many pattern companies and independent pattern designers do, and claim that they hold copyrights they can’t legally hold (and don’t hold), or that you must purchase a license from them to sell something you make from a pattern – they’re getting your money for something you can legally do for free, and it’s deliberately deceptive on their part.

    And re: the t-shirt, there are only so many designs for a t-shirt, or say a scarf. Will someone be able to copyright a scarf with 25 stitches across, moss stitch, for say 200 rows? That seems unreasonable – it’s pretty standard.

  22. Molls June 17, 2010 at 6:16 pm #

    Sara, the letter in the link you provided is dated December 7, 1995. A lot of the copyright laws have changed within the last 15 years.

  23. Sara June 17, 2010 at 6:39 pm #

    Bah, my response did not post.

    Basically, there is legislation in Congress now that would enable clothing designers to get something like a design patent on their patterns. If they already had copyright protection, there would be no legislation pending to give it to them.

    http://www.washingtonwatch.com/bills/show/111_HR_2196.html
    http://www.copyright.gov/docs/regstat072706.html

    Also, the below circular was revised 11/2009, relevant info on page 4.
    http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:g8N0YDTMMS4J:www.copyright.gov/circs/circ40.pdf+copyright+law+knitting+US+copyright+office&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjWr-xt0TPMA1jt97l5Vc-jv9e7anrnJRZ0craZw-8TDBcCRimUe_7fp7nY-htzRDQbakBP07HKoL5SHuDsoDxjaoNN5di34iHXq0Cqq1JzWfJNdqGF7wJ8i3HMBGtlhRq1jlyX&sig=AHIEtbRZEuhHpMDFWWDrFaTQ3UU3Sz-14w

  24. Sara June 17, 2010 at 7:17 pm #

    oops, relevant info page 2

  25. Andrea June 17, 2010 at 7:20 pm #

    It’s awesome when people reference T-berone as their information source. Sara, you seem kind of defensive about pattern stealers. Do you have something you want to talk about?

  26. Sara June 17, 2010 at 8:13 pm #

    Only the first reference was from that source.

    I’ve never sold anything handmade.

    It bothers me when people claim to have a legal right to something they don’t have a legal right to.

  27. Sara June 17, 2010 at 8:14 pm #

    And the amount of misinformation re: clothing patterns (although I admit I generalized to knitting, can’t see how it’s different unless it has original art) around the handmade community is astounding.

  28. forum rubbernecker June 17, 2010 at 9:45 pm #

    I see, Sara, and when did you graduate from law school? Tabberone is not a good legal source, her victories are pretty limited in scope. They also have cost her quite a bit in legal fees. I would suggest everyone avoid using questionable things altogether. In the end, it just ain’t cool to use other people’s patterns and your sentence about “conferring a right”? hogwash.

  29. Rebecca June 17, 2010 at 10:44 pm #

    It bothers me when these sorts of situations arise and people try to interpret the law when they hold no law degree or have legal experience. I also can’t help thinking that people who say that it’s legal to make and *sell* something conceptualized by another designer notwithstanding limitations of use established by that designer would probably cop other people’s designs themselves if the situation arose or think it’s okay to do so. Without getting into legalities and simply put: this girl is a lazy, uncreative, and slightly sneaky crafter and needs to be more upfront in her descriptions and respectful towards the designers whose patterns she’s using. Or, just come up with her own designs without using others as templates. Why? Because integrity is a nice thing to have in this world.

    Besides, she herself loves to publicly accuse others of not being able to “come up with an original idea”. Pot, meet kettle.

    http://www.etsy.com/storque/spotlight/etsy-finds-a-weekend-of-discounts-4897/#comment-148483

  30. Sara June 18, 2010 at 12:42 am #

    I don’t need a legal degree to figure out that clothing designs are not currently copyrightable. Especially as there is legislation in Congress right now that would make them copyrightable (acutally patentable I think?) to some extent.

    The circular from the US copyright office is pretty easy to read, as are summaries of the legislation.

    There are lots of legal sources on the internet; judge as you will.

    Here is another.
    http://kokoba42.blogspot.com/2010/06/ip-talk-with-lawyer-mom.html

    And that is that; others were right; the negativity of this blog and virulence of uninformed opinions is getting to be to much for me as well.

    Resellers still suck, alas.

  31. NotSurprised June 18, 2010 at 4:09 am #

    I don’t think the issue is that the items made from the patterns are being sold. I believe Threadmill states that items made from her patterns can be sold as long as credit is given to her. She also states that her pattern cannot be resold.

    The **issue** is that MissIndie and Headthreadz are claiming it’s their “original” with no credit or mention of the pattern seller whatsoever. Also, up until a few days ago MissIndie did have a 3rd etsy shop called MissIndiedesigns where she was selling the mad hatter crochet pattern which IS NOT hers to sell. Interesting why that shop is suddenly gone.

    Also, let’s not forget she is a chronic tag stuffer even after being told to stop. If you check out her MissIndie and Headthreadz shops……you will find many of the same items in both shops at the same time. I am positive this is against the TOU as well. You can have multiple shops but can’t sell the same items.

    It’s obvious MissIndie does not and will not play by the rules.

  32. PussDaddy June 18, 2010 at 7:02 am #

    Ol’ tabberone and her pattern copyright lawsuit has been around an internet block or two.

  33. Andrea June 18, 2010 at 2:11 pm #

    Even if you feel it’s not legally wrong to take someone else’s pattern and sell what you create, against their wishes, it’s at least morally wrong to pretend that you invented the pattern on your own. Sara, I think this is why you are getting negativity, because you apparently feel that this is A-OK. Also, your weird, overly defensive posting about copyright law when you have no legal or ethical understanding of what is involved. If you’re not a creator, I’m not sure why you’re spending so much time on this post defending your viewpoint. Who cares. You don’t know what it’s like to be stolen from. But please, keep googling and coming up with more evidence that stealing someone else’s work is morally, ethically, and legally alright.

  34. Cosmic Yuk June 18, 2010 at 2:51 pm #

    For me, the issue is, as a creator of crafts it feels like cheating to use a pattern to make something and not credit the patternmaker. We don’t all have what it takes to come up with a new design and there is no shame in using a pattern. Legal or not, to most of us crafters and artisans it’s just plain bad form to try and pass off something made from a published pattern by anyone as your own original idea.

    Of course, people don’t like to do that because they think there will be those who will go and buy the pattern themselves and start selling them and competition will ensue.

    Maybe it’s just me, but if I’m looking for a hat, I’m not looking for a pattern to make a hat. Having that information in your description is not going to deter me from buying the hat if I like it. If I’m looking for a pattern for a hat, I won’t be looking at finished hats and even if I did and found that information in your listing you haven’t lost anything because I wasn’t your target market in the first place. And if I decide to sell them too, well that could happen with or without your information. Competition sucks, but it forces us to challenge our own creativity and keep growing or be left behind.

  35. 1come1n9eace June 18, 2010 at 4:14 pm #

    *applause* for Andrea. You are right on.

  36. JOINAA June 18, 2010 at 6:34 pm #

    Overheard a 15 year old say this once:
    “If you saw me take it, it isn’t stealing”.

    No kidding, this is how some people think– anything to justify doing whatever they want without feeling like they did anything wrong. Reeks of immaturity at the very least.

  37. wahwah June 19, 2010 at 7:05 am #

    Sara, do you have a shop? I need some ideas for mine.

  38. MadeByM**** June 21, 2010 at 6:41 am #

    Cosmic Yuk….you are the wise one.

  39. S June 26, 2010 at 9:10 am #

    I would like to put my two cents in, I hate liars and I hate thieves. HeadThreadz is the one who stole this pattern from the Etsy seller and claiming it as her own. HeadThreadz PURCHASED the pattern from this seller and claimed it was not understandable to follow, yet was able to make it to the T and claim it as her own. I have been crocheting for over 25 yrs and also purchased this pattern from the ORIGINAL creator and was able to follow it just fine. There is a law against plagiarism and I think HeadThreadz should be held accountable for this. The original seller sold her first Trellis Headband on March 17, 2009 and HeadThreadz didn’t even open her shop until May 22, 2010, now please, tell me who created this pattern and who stole it. Here is proof of the shops, here is a link to the first one sold: http://www.etsy.com/transaction/14617411 and here is a link to HeadThreadz site and when it was opened: http://www.etsy.com/listing/49350085/the-trellis-net-headband-in-beach-blue. SHAME ON YOU HEADTHREADZ for claiming it as your own. May God have pity on your soul.

  40. 1come1n9eace December 15, 2010 at 2:55 pm #

    http://www.etsy.com/people/missindie/feedback
    Please read MissIndie’s latest neg feedback before etsy removes it for use of the F-word!

    LMFuckingAO

  41. 1come1n9eace December 28, 2010 at 3:01 pm #

    http://www.etsy.com/people/missindie/feedback
    Wonder how long these latest negatives will stay before indie starts with her “poor me” pleading for them to change it.

  42. samguine January 31, 2011 at 6:43 am #

    Had to get my money back from Missindie via an escalated Paypal claim for 4 hats I ordered when the 45 day limit was nearing. 3 orders I never received and paid for them in October (it’s not January of the next year.) So I filed a non-delivery report and left negative feedback about how I never received my items and Missindie goes ahead and trashes my feedback when I am an excellent buyer and I paid for my items immediately after purchase. How immature and unprofessional. Etsy is a scam. I can’t believe they allow this to go on.

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  1. Art Thief: Mandy Ferrugia / Miss Indie | Erin E. Flynn - July 23, 2013

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