Trainwreck Fun In The Morning…

30 Jun
Janine King Designs is one of those massively successful shops with sales in five digits.  I’ve admired her success for some time now, but am so disappointed in what I’ve seen today.
She started a thread complaining that someone was copying her designs (using her pictures and descriptions and of course that’s a major no-no!).  Someone suggested she go in and “buy” all of those listings.  Apparently she decided to do so and logged in user her buyer account (which was not disclosed in her shop).
The problem?  Janine’s buyer account (nene12459) was used to buy from her janinekingdesigns shop!
Janine’s explanation?
“yes it was easier to relist items when I had a new item that was the same in every way but came in a different fabrics. I’m sure other seller do this too because Etsy didn’t use to have a copy function. I’m not sure if they do yet or if it’s ant Etsyhack but I used that now instead when i need to copy an item.”
Okay, let’s say that’s acceptable (it’s not).  But if that’s the only reason why Janine was shilling, why leave feedback?  Why is the most recent transaction only ONE MONTH AGO?
_________________________________________________________________________________
unfairness thread-
LittleRoundThings
LittleRoundThings says:
So why was that Hong Kong shop closed down but not the “other” shop? Just because the other one is so big on etsy?

I bet that HK seller is scratching her head and wondering – why is she allowed to sell 14000 of those bags here but not me.

Advertisements

180 Responses to “Trainwreck Fun In The Morning…”

  1. JohnCock June 30, 2010 at 8:16 am #

    Unfreaking believable. I always thought that shop was hinky.

  2. Cat Power June 30, 2010 at 9:01 am #

    I believe I posted an email about this shop late last year or early this year, and I was shot down for being too hard on her and her amazing talents.

    Don’t have the time at the moment to find it, but I don’t think I used this name at the time.

    And I hate to say it guys, but I think I told you so….there I said it and it feels much better. Not being snarky, just letting you know that an old lady happened to make the call 3 years ago! Unfortunately at the time all I had to go on was her Ebay acct. and the numbers from Etsy.

    Will be back after my surgeons appt.

  3. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 9:22 am #

    Cat, saw that shop more than a year ago and also thought it was too slick to be true: too many sales on too many places to be anything else but a reseller of mass produced stuff.
    and Upstate NY? That means anywhere BUT NYC. That’s not a fucking location. I have believed for some time that it was a drop-shipping PO

  4. Whisperia June 30, 2010 at 9:28 am #

    And in an awesome turn of events, she’s calling out the Hong Kong seller by name in her shop announcement.

  5. Disgusted June 30, 2010 at 9:29 am #

    It only gets worse – she is also an Ebay shop plus this
    http://www.artfire.com/users/JanineKingDesigns

  6. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 9:38 am #

    Pot calling the kettle black.

    NO WAY is “Janette and don king” making all these bags, listed every fucking where, without a factory. A REAL factory.

    Who is the REal Jannette?? Inquiring minds need to know.

  7. RocksInMySocks June 30, 2010 at 9:39 am #

    Reposting this now that JanineKing has earned her own post:

    http://www.etsy.com/shop/gypsyrosehandbags

    Does anyone think these are the same bags? The profile for this shop makes an AWFUL big deal about being handmade. I trust NOTHING and NO ONE on Etsy now.

  8. RocksInMySocks June 30, 2010 at 9:40 am #

    JanineKing has more than 12,400 sales on Ebay.

  9. Freckleyredhead June 30, 2010 at 9:40 am #

    I’ve been digging around on the internet. It looks like she is a legitimate designer. She says they have a “cottage business” run by her and her husband. So I’m betting she doesn’t sew all those bags by hand. But she’s not technically a reseller. This may be one of those cases where a seller has become successful and outgrown Etsy.

  10. Freckleyredhead June 30, 2010 at 9:41 am #

    Rocks, I don’t think that Gypsy Rose and Janine King are the same.

  11. Laura June 30, 2010 at 9:44 am #

    So, this Janine King has personally made over 26,000 bags just between Ebay and Etsy? LOL! And this doesn’t include the wholesale accounts!

  12. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 9:46 am #

    https://etsycallout.wordpress.com/2009/12/19/from-the-inbox/

    Here’s the old thread, found it on google. Guess who is driving up to Utica NY in a few weeks. I think I need to drop in on her.

  13. Blue Kitty June 30, 2010 at 9:49 am #

    Laura Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 9:44 am
    So, this Janine King has personally made over 26,000 bags just between Ebay and Etsy? LOL! And this doesn’t include the wholesale accounts!

    ………………………………

    EeeeeeeeZeeeeeee

    (Hubby helps)

  14. anon June 30, 2010 at 9:50 am #

    She was on Ebay long before Etsy so she outgrew Etsy before she even joined. We also have no way of knowing how much she sold on her Ecrater and personal websites. On Ebay when you click on feedback she received as a seller the feedback left is nearly 16000.

  15. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 9:56 am #

    google her,. She and “Don” have done all the area arts & crafts shows, too.
    Sorry, Charlie, you would have to be a robot or a factory to produce this much.

  16. Lizzy June 30, 2010 at 9:59 am #

    So what was this seller Anpinggirl all about that she called out? Someone who has her wholesale products or a scammer lifting her listings? Confused…

  17. uh-huh June 30, 2010 at 10:00 am #

    JOINAA Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 9:46 am

    https://etsycallout.wordpress.com/2009/12/19/from-the-inbox/

    Here’s the old thread, found it on google. Guess who is driving up to Utica NY in a few weeks. I think I need to drop in on her.

    —–
    An interesting read, thanks for digging that up!
    It sure does leave you wondering, with that much product turning out…

  18. i ronnie June 30, 2010 at 10:02 am #

    It’s probably too much to hope that etsy will do the right thing and oust ‘Janine’ for the lying deceitful asshole she/he is.

    It’s going to be up to Etsians to keep this in the light though…otherwise swept away like so many other things there.

    The irony will be that anyone that tries to bring this to light will be the one punished.

  19. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 10:03 am #

    So how do you feel now, those who defended her success? I can’t wait to get up there.

  20. Kathy June 30, 2010 at 10:12 am #

    Her shilling account is gone.

  21. i ronnie June 30, 2010 at 10:21 am #

    etsy sweeping things under the rug…again. Time to remove the seller account too!!

  22. uh-huh June 30, 2010 at 10:29 am #

    it’s possible she closed that account herself

  23. anon June 30, 2010 at 10:30 am #

    She has over 14000 sales and less then 6000 feedback which includes her own shills. I know that not all customers leave feedback, even if they are 100% pleased with items, but a less then 50% return rate?

  24. i ronnie June 30, 2010 at 10:32 am #

    Yes, I’m sure she asked to have it closed, but etsy knows what’s going on. They closed the forum threads where the account was accidentally outed.

    The right think to do would be to close both accounts.

  25. i ronnie June 30, 2010 at 10:35 am #

    What is the point of the TOU if etsy just helps you clean up your mess when you’re caught.

    If an undisclosed account is used for shilling…one strike you’re out. That’s the kind of message etsy needs to send. NOt the wishy washyness that is etsy.

    One has to wonder if the seller wasn’t so high profile, read: making lots of $$ for etsy, would they have shut down the seller account too?

  26. eaten by a grue June 30, 2010 at 10:52 am #

    I see that the nene12459 acct was closed, but does that mean that the nene12459 feedback left for janinekingdesigns is now gone too? Because I can’t find any.

  27. KR June 30, 2010 at 10:53 am #

    I was one of the commenters in the original post about janine king here. I don’t remember what all I wrote but I defended her and took issue with the OP for being obsessed with the seller (I was not the only one). I was bashed for expressing an opinion and even vaguely accused of writing fake comments to back myself up. Oh well.

    I try to be a decent person, so let me say, if I came down on the OP too hard my apologies!

    I do think JKing should have her shop closed down for shilling. She admited she shilled. She also showed that she has an unrevealed buying account. Both of these are against etsy rules.

    WHY don’t they shut her down? I WANT TO KNOW WHY.

    I DO have a comment and questions though.

    I think she DOES make those bags. But I also think she has people helping her. Her studio is in a residential area in Utica, NY. I think it is actually attached to her house. I had thought that etsy rules allow having help like that?

    I really think you can produce that amount of quality bags with lots of help, industrial sewing machines, assembly line production and decades of practice and work.

    Why do the whole craft show/ebay/etsy thing presenting yourself as handmade when really you are a huge factory somewhere and could make loads more money doing wholesale? Maybe I’m naive and just don’t know what really goes on business-wise.

    But yeah shut her down for breaking the rules, but as far as I see it, not because she isn’t ‘handmade’ according to etsy’s description.

  28. Staticcling June 30, 2010 at 10:54 am #

    JK has a fair amount of neutral and negative feedback. Perhaps she was shilling to get her positive percentage up?

  29. eaten by a grue June 30, 2010 at 10:57 am #

    I agree with you, KR, and there comes a point when, even if you start out handmade, you are no longer handmade. Presenting a shop which employs many people as handmade is deceptive. These things are no more “hand made” than Coach bags or Louis Vuitton, at this point. Someone designs a bag, and then 10 people are running them off on machines, over and over and over and over. Why, it’s almost like an assembly line! Or….a factory!

    Which is what it is. A small factory. This is bullshit. Etsy sucks so hard. And yep, they will sweep this under the rug like they do every other time. And most people will forget, and move on. Which is what they want. U G H.

  30. RocksInMySocks June 30, 2010 at 11:05 am #

    i ronnie Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 10:35 am
    What is the point of the TOU if etsy just helps you clean up your mess when you’re caught.

    —————

    This is how Etsy handles most of the resellers now. They bend over backwards to help them get their shops in compliance. I’m sure this same logic applies to shilling feedback, too.

  31. KR June 30, 2010 at 11:13 am #

    Putting a face on the issue–

    king family 2007

  32. Fed UP June 30, 2010 at 11:23 am #

    I wonder if that’s really her family. It’s hard to trust anything anymore :/

  33. Whisperia June 30, 2010 at 11:41 am #

    Her shop announcement has been modified to remove the name of the Hong Kong seller. I will hazard a guess and say that her shop is going to remain open.

  34. JK June 30, 2010 at 11:57 am #

    <— Not the JK in question, by the way! I'm not sure I could sew a bag if my life depended on it (not that she necessarily does, of course).

    'Why do the whole craft show/ebay/etsy thing presenting yourself as handmade when really you are a huge factory somewhere and could make loads more money doing wholesale?'

    There can be a neat stack of money made on goods passed off as handmade, as evidenced by all the Dollar Store crap that makes FP at twenty times the original price. Why bother with wholesale when you can make tons of money off people who want something they've been led to believe is special?

  35. Cat Power June 30, 2010 at 12:15 pm #

    Thanks, JOINAA, for finding that thread. Just got back and thought I’d see how this was progressing.

    Glad they/she closed the shilling shop at least. But I doubt very much they will boot a big money maker like her from selling.

    I’m happy that at least everyone who reads the forums and this blog sees what I have seen for a long time, and that perhaps she will lose a little business because of it.

    Liars/cheats are, to me, some of the worst people we have to put up with in this life, and to see one get her comeuppance does my heart good.

  36. detroit June 30, 2010 at 12:19 pm #

    lol – they clearly hired underage Asian sweatshop workers to pose for their picture. Bet they only paid them a few cents!

    Joking aside….

    Hmmm… Well, according to the ‘disclosure’ on their profile (which appears in tone to have been added after people complained they were being deceptive – making it look like it was just lil old Janine and Don) – I guess, since they have about 8 people: Janine, Don, their teenage / adult two kids, three seamstresses, and shipping assistant….

    Well, maybe they could make all their stuff.

    But, I was trying to figure out why someone so successful would shill. The ‘trying to take a shortcut on relisting’ is clearly BS. Otherwise, why the glowing feedback. Beee-E-E-E Essssss!

    I assume she did it periodically to bump a negative off the front page of feedback? You guys think that’s it?

  37. box o' cookies June 30, 2010 at 12:21 pm #

    well.. this was a fun read.

    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6562176

  38. detroit June 30, 2010 at 12:24 pm #

    Does anyone have any proof she’s a reseller? Like, Alibaba type links, or multiple stores offering the exact same goods / same pics?

    Above, I wasn’t ruling out that she’s a reseller. Just theorizing that 8 people could possibly produce that sort of volume…

  39. From Utica June 30, 2010 at 12:25 pm #

    KR Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 11:13 am
    Putting a face on the issue–

    king family 2007
    ——————————-

    Ummmm, that’s not Janine.

  40. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 12:29 pm #

    Fed UP Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 11:23 am

    I wonder if that’s really her family. It’s hard to trust anything anymore :/

    SAME HERE

  41. wahwah June 30, 2010 at 12:39 pm #

    Once again the liars and cheats thrive on etsy while the good guys fall behind.

  42. detroit June 30, 2010 at 12:40 pm #

    Well, who the hell IS Janine? She posted a fake family on her flickr? Wha wha whaaaa?

  43. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 12:41 pm #

    If you google her name, ECO is right up there at the top. The “disclosure” she added is fine if you want to believe everything someone says after they have been caught in one lie already.
    Still say, no way.

  44. detroit June 30, 2010 at 12:43 pm #

    Can someone please link some sellers (on Etsy or elsewhere) selling the exact same bags, who aren’t a JK account?

    I wanna know, is she really a reseller?

    K thanks.

  45. wahwah June 30, 2010 at 12:50 pm #

    I think she has a small factory, I don’t think she is a reseller.

  46. Cat Power June 30, 2010 at 12:50 pm #

    From Utica….you say that isn’t Janine…I had a gut feeling it wasn’t, but of course wouldn’t know.

    Have you actually seen her, since you live in that city? What would be a thumbnail description?

    I have an image in my head of what I think she looks like, which is probably totally off base, but would love to hear particulars from someone who is acquainted with her.

  47. Freckleyredhead June 30, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    I’ll say it again. . . I don’t think she’s a reseller, as in someone who is buying wholesale and reselling on Etsy. I think she has a small “factory” or whatever you want to call it making the bags. And I don’t think she’s Etsy legal anymore according to the TOUS.

    Did anyone find a “source” for these bags?

  48. uh-huh June 30, 2010 at 12:52 pm #

    #39 you’re gonna have expand on that
    I’d also like to see links re: reselling
    She’s an admitted shiller but beyond that we need something concrete.

  49. i ronnie June 30, 2010 at 12:53 pm #

    IF that disclosure is true, that’s still an amazing amount of product to turn out. I don’t know how you could do anything else but that 24/7.

    I still think they should be ousted because of the shilling though.

  50. Whisperia June 30, 2010 at 12:57 pm #

    I’m not convinced that she’s a reseller. I think she just wasn’t being honest that all of the work wasn’t being done by her and her husband, which her profile previously implied. And there isn’t really any way to excuse the shilling. Shilling isn’t okay on eBay, and it seems she was selling on eBay long before Etsy, so I can’t imagine that she ever thought that it would be acceptable on Etsy. I’ve never visited an internet marketplace where it was acceptable.

    If her process is Etsy legal, I don’t have a problem with her being there as long as she’s up front about it. But the problem is that she hasn’t been honest about it for a very long time. Add in the shilling issue and the weak excuse for it, and she comes out looking pretty bad. It’s tough to sift through the BS and figure out what the truth is. Is the added disclosure in her profile the truth, or is it a story to cover her tracks? Who knows? At this point, it doesn’t matter. I’m turned off from ever considering buying from her. Just the shilling was enough for me.

    Based on the modifications to her profile, it doesn’t look like she is going to face any significant consequences aside from maybe a small handful of potential future sales from people who read ECO. But based on her volume of sales, that wouldn’t really impact her bottom line.

  51. uh-huh June 30, 2010 at 1:00 pm #

    i can only imagine how badly she must be kicking herself for starting that thread. it was pretty epic and I’ve seen a lot of crazy stuff on etsy.

  52. wahwah June 30, 2010 at 1:03 pm #

    I used to spend many hours of my life investigating shillers on ebay. I have no forgiveness in my heart for them and I would rather buy from walmart then buy from someone like Janine who is not honest.

  53. Life During Wartime June 30, 2010 at 1:04 pm #

    I’m not sure how much handmade appeal an item has if the shop has sold 10s of thousands of similar pieces on Etsy, Ebay, ArtFire, ECrater, Amazon and ??? It may be Etsy ‘legal’ but for me it’s a turn-off.

  54. detroit June 30, 2010 at 1:09 pm #

    I agree LDW. I always love buying from very original people, who have a low amount of sales. They’re so delighted! Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy – lol.

    Regardless if they’re Etsy legal, they’re still churning ’em out at breakneck speed.

    Etsy is a very difficult model for people to actually make a living, doing honest, handmade crafts. And, allowing all the cut rate reselling doesn’t help.

  55. detroit June 30, 2010 at 1:10 pm #

    The ‘they’ who I said ‘churned them out’ – I meant JK designs….

    My posts never make a lot of sense.

    I have a to-do list a mile long. Instead I’ve been reading this crap til my eyes are bleeding, and I can’t even make sense any more – lol.

  56. whoreforcolor June 30, 2010 at 1:19 pm #

    This seller is on the FP right now. Looking at these prices and the work involved, as well as the location….I doubt it’s one person making these.

    http://www.etsy.com/shop/TheHomeCentric

  57. From Utica June 30, 2010 at 1:20 pm #

    The Janine and Don King I know are in their 50’s.

  58. Blue Kitty June 30, 2010 at 1:35 pm #

    From Utica Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 12:25 pm
    KR Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 11:13 am
    Putting a face on the issue–

    king family 2007
    ——————————-

    Ummmm, that’s not Janine

    ………………………………

    You can tell because they have fingers and not bleeding stumps from making all those bags I suppose?

  59. wahwah June 30, 2010 at 1:46 pm #

    LOL Bluekitty!

  60. RocksInMySocks June 30, 2010 at 2:05 pm #

    haha, Bluekitty!

    Am I the only one who thinks the family photo looks as fake as the photos of her bags? I have no appreciation for those fill in the blank fabric variations at all.

  61. RocksInMySocks June 30, 2010 at 2:10 pm #

    maybe it’s the blue background that make them look cut and pasted, especially the Amanda person. I need a life!

  62. Cat Power June 30, 2010 at 2:11 pm #

    Thanks, From Utica…That was closer to the image I had in my head..,…certainly not a youngish preppy couple with teenage kids.

  63. Whisperia June 30, 2010 at 2:16 pm #

    detroit Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    Regardless if they’re Etsy legal, they’re still churning ‘em out at breakneck speed.

    Etsy is a very difficult model for people to actually make a living, doing honest, handmade crafts. And, allowing all the cut rate reselling doesn’t help.
    ———————————————-

    And that is the fundamental problem with the Etsy model. They sell the “quit your day job” ideal. Except that if you become successful enough to quit your day job, you’d be too busy to do it all on your own. By that point, your items have gone from unique to assembly-line produced by the team of people you’ve hired to keep up with the sales, and quite possibly copied and sold in a dozen other shops. It seems like it’s a bizarre tightrope that people have to walk, finding enough sales to be successful and make it all worthwhile, but not so many that your items can’t really legitimately be considered handmade as opposed to mass produced.

    I don’t personally have an issue with any seller who has tens of thousands of sales on Etsy or elsewhere per se. It does make the items they are selling less unique, certainly, but we all have to make those choices as consumers, and I have no problem with a buyer refusing to buy from someone with sales as high as hers.

    For many, the whole point of going to Etsy in the first place is to find things that aren’t readily available everywhere. That seems to be getting tougher and tougher these days.

  64. JOINAA June 30, 2010 at 2:48 pm #

    Detroit, one reason it’s tough is that potential customers have to sort through too much questionable stuff to find the real thing.

    (and those pillows– somebody must have bleeding hands!)

  65. detroit June 30, 2010 at 2:52 pm #

    Yep.

    From the DoubleXX article I assume a lot of you have read. But QFT here:

    “If anything, Etsy exerts a downward pressure on prices. At the local craft fair, an artist could charge a premium for homemade goods, because the buyer had few options. But Etsy puts the artist in Brooklyn in direct competition with the artist in Dubuque, or London. This forces each one to offer ever more attractive deals. Most artists can’t drastically increase volume (the usual answer to slim margins), because the items are supposed to be one-of-a-kind, not mass-produced, in keeping with the site’s whole ethos. ”

    And that doesn’t even include the fact that most crafters also have to compete with resellers….

  66. Cosmic Yuk June 30, 2010 at 3:26 pm #

    From Utica, do the Janine and don king you know have a business? I’m not sure what it means that the picture of the shop’s janine king and family is not the janine king you know.

  67. PussDaddy June 30, 2010 at 3:48 pm #

    Each next major drama funnier and more ridiculous than the last. I feel sorry for the honest ones.

  68. Andrea June 30, 2010 at 3:51 pm #

    I just have no idea what would cause someone with so many sales (and I do believe they are legitimate sales) would shill for a few feedbacks.

    I think she probably has a mini-factory (not said disparagingly) and hopefully she pays her employees a decent wage and I am not offended by her staying on etsy. I have bought a few purses from etsy and I always see her come up, I’m just not interested in that kind of “mass appeal” look, I have very specific wishes for my bags. So don’t think that she is necessarily “stealing” sales from other handbag makers who can’t meet her volume. Actually I think it’s the people who try to use her formula for basic generic purses in multiple fabrics that end up feeling frustrated because they can’t compete with her on quality.

    Also this was on the etsy thread I think, but I hate the idea that her bags are “too polished” to be handmade. I buy handmade stuff based on it’s polished level. Who wants something that looked like a child made it, or has loose threads or crooked panels or hot glue strings hanging from it? I want professionally made looking things that are unique and beautiful.

  69. SimonJester June 30, 2010 at 4:11 pm #

    I have flagged JanineKingDesigns a few time over a period of four years. JKD has always had a profile that made it sound that she and her husband made every single bag – the change in her profile is *extremely* recent. And I knew that she had at least one seamstress as an employee, so I flagged her, with proof. At that time there were no rules allowing employees, so it was my understanding that the entire item had to be made by the vendor. However obviously she is still there so it must have been A-OK with Etsy.

    The D&D now say “An assistant or third-party vendor’s involvement may not comprise a majority share of a handmade item’s creation.” She and Don are the shop owners, and her profile now indicates that they have three assistants who do various parts of production, plus a family member who occasionally helps with sewing. Even that number seems low, when you add up the number of sales and also consider that she does a lot of big arts and crafts festivals. Especially since apparently husband Don is the one who goes to the festivals. So he’s not at home doing his share of the production during that time. How can they possibly do a “majority share” of the item’s creation?

  70. detroit June 30, 2010 at 4:40 pm #

    Andrea Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 3:51 pm

    I just have no idea what would cause someone with so many sales (and I do believe they are legitimate sales) would shill for a few feedbacks.
    ***************************

    I’m pretty sure it was to bury negatives. Get them off the 1st page of feedback.

    If you have too much time, you can look and see several people were very upset that the zippers broke soon after buying / the quality was shoddy.

    Then, if you read their recent ‘disclosure’ – they make an odd effort to stress their perfection vis-a-vis zippers. I didn’t get why til I saw the negs.

    And that would explain the shilling too.

    That’s my armchair psychologist’s explanation.

  71. Life During Wartime June 30, 2010 at 5:37 pm #

    Detroit, that is a major reason why I’d be wary of buying from an Etsy shop with a huge volume of sales: once you (and your small workforce) are producing a large enough number of items, you are competing with mass manufacturers if your items are at the same price point. And, like the mass manufacturers, you most likely are cutting corners somewhere to keep your prices in line with what your customer base is willing to pay.

    I wonder how employees working in a home-based mini factory can make a living wage + benefits.

  72. wahwah June 30, 2010 at 5:46 pm #

    huh?

  73. marn June 30, 2010 at 5:57 pm #

    could this be the website they don’t have “time” for?

    http://stores.janinekingdesigns.com/StoreFront.bok

  74. jenn June 30, 2010 at 6:00 pm #

    I’m not at all surprised that the shilling buyer account is gone with no consequence from etsy, considering how they ‘handled’ the NeatThings garbage.

  75. SimonJester June 30, 2010 at 6:29 pm #

    Oh, and she also sells wholesale to “very exclusive shops, usually in upscale tourist destinations.”
    http://studiocherie.blogspot.com/2009/01/in-depth-look-at-wholesale.html

    Now of course some people would argue that she can have all the employees she wants make the stuff she sells other than on Etsy, as long as she herself completes a “majority share” of the Etsy products. But how do you keep that separate? I mean, seriously.

    And I’m quite disgusted that the shilling shop is gone with no consequences – it seems to me that the corresponding feedback has also been removed, is that correct? She’s already been coached to “disclose” some employees, now she gets all evidence of rule-breaking removed. Hmph, others have been brickwalled for less.

  76. bellacruz June 30, 2010 at 6:36 pm #

    lol @ wahwah (& ditto to the HUH?)

    Anyway, wow. I really don’t know what on earth to say about all this, other than my stomach actually hurt to read through the self-callout thread. Why is dishonesty the answer? And passed off as a “little mistake”? I mean, at times you do make mistakes that are even dishonest—but shilling seems to be soooooo deliberate.

    I don’t know. Just feel sick about the whole thing.

  77. bellacruz June 30, 2010 at 6:38 pm #

    @SimonJester, that makes etsy complicit in the deception IMHO.

  78. Andrea June 30, 2010 at 6:53 pm #

    This isn’t the first time etsy has done it (protected shillers) and of course they will continue to do it. Someone with that many sales is making etsy quite a bit of money and they’re not going to cut them off for that. Meanwhile they have no issue killing the shops of a couple of honest sellers because they say something that angers some admin. I really have no faith that etsy wants to be a truly handmade community, I think they still claim it because it’s better PR than being a garage sale.

    detroit I could see if there were a lot of shilling feedbacks, and maybe she used more than one account, but I thought nene had only left 5 feedbacks over several months. Meanwhile nene had received like 12 feedback. It really makes no logical sense to me. With that volume it seems like any negs would probably be ignored by most buyers anyway.

  79. Akhenaten June 30, 2010 at 7:22 pm #

    Whoops! Foot-in-feedback-mouth.

    First of all, it’s unethical for someone to steal another’s design. Let’s just say that happened here (though, with her track record, she may not have been ripped off at all).

    Is it then ethical to BUY all of the other shop’s items to forcibly remove them from Etsy? Really? Is that OK? Ethical? Cool?

    It’s completely FUCKED and AGAINST the rules. She should be removed immediately. eBay removes people pretty quickly for that shit.

    And then, she inadvertently revealed her shilling. Why leave feedback, then, if it’s just a convenient “short cut.”

    UNETHICAL in every way.

    Oh yeah, and here’s an unrelated thread which shows how Etsy may be coaching some of these people into compliance:
    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6562491&page=1

  80. Akhenaten June 30, 2010 at 7:23 pm #

    I don’t believe she was ripped off at all, actually, the more I think about it. Who would believe a shiller and a purposeful NPB who uses strongarm tactics to remove items she thinks ripped her off?

    UNETHICAL. UNETHICAL.

  81. Staticcling June 30, 2010 at 7:38 pm #

    uh-huh Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    #39 you’re gonna have expand on that
    I’d also like to see links re: reselling
    She’s an admitted shiller but beyond that we need something concrete.
    —————————————

    What, like this? http://www.regretsy.com/2010/06/30/equal-paver-equal-work/

  82. Cosmic Yuk June 30, 2010 at 7:57 pm #

    Here are my thoughts on shilling…not ethical and breaks the rules. Shiller should have all shilled feedback removed, because its main purpose is to inflate the numbers, well you take those numbers away no more inflated numbers. Sock puppet used for shilling should be closed down, and remaining shop should get a warning that if they break any other rules, they could be closed down.

    You people talk like removing the feedback is Etsy sweeping it under the rug, but what do you want them to do? leave it there? n0 one but us knows it;s shilled feedback. An d frankly, unless she shilled half her feedback, I’m not sure it’s worthy of a shop closure. Definitely a warning.

  83. kitten June 30, 2010 at 8:11 pm #

    She is also leaves retalitory feedback… real professional reply here. I don’t know why she’s so surprised that the zipper broke, seems to happen a lot.

    Shame on the buyer? Shame on YOU JANINE KING, you vindictive, shilling, dishonest bitch!

    janinekingdesigns says:
    You purchased this item in Feb 1 then posted feedback on May 29 stating that the zipper broke in two weeks. If that were true why didn’t you contact us back in February? Your never contacted us at all, for that matter. We stand behind our products and would have offered a replacement. In all likelihood you abused the zipper by overstuffing the bag and 3 months later the zipper broke and you’re pissed about it so you take it out on us by falsely claiming that the zipper broke within two weeks. Shame on you.

  84. Life During Wartime June 30, 2010 at 11:45 pm #

    Even if every word of that retaliating FB is true, a professional wouldn’t make that public. A professional — which is what you would expect her to be with that volume of sales — would have simply sent a replacement bag.

  85. wahwah July 1, 2010 at 4:31 am #

    “abused the zipper”

    LOL

    What a twit.

  86. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 4:52 am #

    Cosmic Yuk Says:
    June 30, 2010 at 7:57 pm
    Here are my thoughts on shilling…not ethical and breaks the rules. Shiller should have all shilled feedback removed, because its main purpose is to inflate the numbers, well you take those numbers away no more inflated numbers. Sock puppet used for shilling should be closed down, and remaining shop should get a warning that if they break any other rules, they could be closed down.

    You people talk like removing the feedback is Etsy sweeping it under the rug, but what do you want them to do? leave it there? n0 one but us knows it;s shilled feedback. And frankly, unless she shilled half her feedback, I’m not sure it’s worthy of a shop closure. Definitely a warning.

    —————————————-

    Shilling is against the law. It warrants more than a warning by Etsy. Deceptive advertising and/or untrue and misleading advertising is prohibited. Feedback is considered a form of advertising.

    The NY State Attorney General’s office is very aggressive with things of this nature, so they should be contacted. There happens to be a branch office right here in Utica.

    Utica Regional Office
    Office of the Attorney General
    207 Genesee St., Room 508
    Utica, NY 13501
    315-793-2225

  87. thatgirlagain July 1, 2010 at 5:05 am #

    I read that thread like an hour ago and I’m still so confused by her shilling explanation. How does that work as a “copy” function to relist in different fabrics? Doesn’t buying pull the old one off? So if you have a blue a red and a green one and “buy” the blue one to “relist” a red one, isn’t your blue one gone now? wtf?

    I’m with Andrea re:the generic mass appeal of her bags. I don’t know anything about the quality but for somehting on a handmade site they just didn’t appeal to me anyway. They looked like something I could pick up at Sam Moon.

  88. SimonJester July 1, 2010 at 6:21 am #

    CosmicYuk, I do see your point and, yeah, what else did I expect Etsy to do – although I have heard of other shops being closed for less. I don’t think that the reason or overall effect on her feedback should be taken into account, because it is a rule that is quite clear and has been broken. But I agree they probably did the most logical thing for Etsy. It just angers me that this will all be swept under the rug now.

    What do you think about this situation? I had someone tell me that they “purchased” their own item using their buyer account, because they had sold it offline to a person who had seen it on Etsy. They couldn’t convince the person (a co-worker) to go on Etsy and buy it, so they figured it was okay to do it that way because they felt that Etsy deserved the fee. Hmmm, that’s a fine line now isn’t it? The difference is, they didn’t leave themselves feedback! They recognized that was crossing the line.

    Thatgirlagain, I think I get what JKD was saying. I think she did it whenever she had a new design/brand-new listing, because once purchased she could just hit “relist” and then edit the listing to reflect the color change, then hit “relist” again and do it again for a different color. Not the right way to go about it, but leaving feedback for herself along the way was way worse!!

    I just hope that more attention is now being focussed on JKD by admin for other reasons – like whether her stuff can actually be considered to be handmade by her. My vote – NO WAY!

  89. Blue Kitty July 1, 2010 at 6:40 am #

    COE will be redundant at this rate.

    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6562798&page=1

  90. bellacruz July 1, 2010 at 7:21 am #

    Hopefully the self-outing will continue. Not that it will mean anything to admin…

  91. uh-huh July 1, 2010 at 8:27 am #

    I’m not getting anything accomplished w/ all the insanity in the past couple days, like a little crafty soap opera, who can look away?

  92. wahwah July 1, 2010 at 8:50 am #

    Boo hoo. Someone stole my stolen images!

  93. Cosmic Yuk July 1, 2010 at 9:19 am #

    From Utica, I didn’t know about the legal ramifications, so thank you for that. However, I do not believe it is as cut and dried as you would make it sound. I doubt that even legally she would be much more than hand slapped for a first time violation.

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t condone shilling or stupid excuses for doing it.

    I just think there might be a ‘somewhere in the middle’ type of penalization, such as closing the shop for a week as a warning and future violations could lead to longer or more permanent shop closings.

  94. Blue Kitty July 1, 2010 at 9:39 am #

    JK had a sort of screenshot page of testimonials in their Flickr album yesterday, I can’t see it there now. Cleaning up?

  95. Cosmic Yuk July 1, 2010 at 9:45 am #

    Simonjester, Etsy sorely lacks in the consistency department, I am very aware of how often their punishments don’t fit the crime.

    As for your scenario, I don’t see that as actual shilling, although I know others will disagree with me. In your case someone actually did buy the item and because the seller wanted to go through Etsy instead of taking the transaction off, Etsy made the sales commission.

    I, myself had a situation where a lady bought something of mine, she is a client of my husband’s and I used him as the go-between and he put the sale through on his buying account. She wasn’t interested in signing up on Etsy, but I wanted the sale reflected in my shop.

    What about people who encourage friends and family to sign up to buy even though the transaction is in person?

    To me, shilling is the *artificial* inflation of feedback and sales by buying from yourself. In this case Janine king dug her own grave by admitting they weren’t sales at all. But what if she had said that they were actual sales to people who didn’t want to sign up? Would there be more sympathy in that case?

    I would like to think that she and her shop will be investigated more deeply, but I highly doubt that will happen without substantial proof plastered all over the internet that they can’t ignore.

    What I find interesting is From Utica seems to know more than they’re saying and could possibly aid in this, but for some reason they are reluctant to.

  96. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 10:38 am #

    Cosmic Yuk Says:
    July 1, 2010 at 9:19 am
    From Utica, I didn’t know about the legal ramifications, so thank you for that. However, I do not believe it is as cut and dried as you would make it sound. I doubt that even legally she would be much more than hand slapped for a first time violation.

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t condone shilling or stupid excuses for doing it.

    I just think there might be a ‘somewhere in the middle’ type of penalization, such as closing the shop for a week as a warning and future violations could lead to longer or more permanent shop closings.
    —————————-

    Etsy might not take shilling to seriously, but our Attorney General is real aggressive and our consumer protection unit is second to none. Shilling is taken very seriously here.

    It is consumer fraud. Self inflating ones feedback to decieve the consumer is more than a slap in the wrist here. Our AG takes lots of businesses, large and small, to court for consumer fraud.

  97. Freckleyredhead July 1, 2010 at 10:39 am #

    What is it with resellers calling themselves out this week? Crazy times!

  98. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 11:14 am #

    What I find interesting is From Utica seems to know more than they’re saying and could possibly aid in this, but for some reason they are reluctant to.

    ———————————-
    There is no such business here in Utica. The address she uses does not exist.

    There’s more but I think it’s best left to the authorities.

  99. Cosmic Yuk July 1, 2010 at 11:21 am #

    99.
    From Utica Says:
    July 1, 2010 at 11:14 am

    What I find interesting is From Utica seems to know more than they’re saying and could possibly aid in this, but for some reason they are reluctant to.

    ———————————-
    There is no such business here in Utica. The address she uses does not exist.

    There’s more but I think it’s best left to the authorities.

    _________________________________________________________

    Well, if there is more to it than what I’m reading, and it’s justified, then I hope someone has alerted the authorities to look into the situation.

    I just don’t want to see a witch hunt because someone faked a few feedback and appears to be more of a factory than a home based, handmade business.

  100. Cosmic Yuk July 1, 2010 at 11:32 am #

    As to all these resellers calling them selves out in the forums of late, it has occurred to me that since Etsy has done away with their tagline and gone with a more ‘global marketplace’, perhaps this has caused them to believe they are now welcome here.

    I realize that the TOU hasn’t changed, but honestly, how often do people really read those?

    I didn’t when I set up shop. I had heard in another forum I belonged to about this new selling site for handmade, saw a few of my forum buddies had opened shop and I opened my own. Luckily I found out that I was compliant with the rules because I handmake everything myself but I didn’t start really reading all the rules until I came to the forums.

    Yes, I know we should all read the rules before signing up, and God knows there is a ton of finger wagging to sellers who don’t, but I’d love to know how many of those finger waggers are just like I was and learned the rules after signing up.

  101. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 11:32 am #

    There’s much more to it.

  102. Janine King July 1, 2010 at 11:43 am #

    My address is 1151 Pleasant Street, Utica, NY 13501

    You can find my house using google maps and you look up my phone number/address using the white pages.

    The photo I show in my Flickr account is indeed me and my family. It was taken in 2007 when my son graduated from highschool. My hair is longer and darker now but I used that picture because it’s really the only good one I have. Thank you for saying that my husband and I look “youngish”. I am 51 and my husband is 55.

    If “From Utica” would like to come to my house and meet me and then report back to you all that will be fine. Using the white pages or by calling information you can verify that my phone number is 315-733-9863. if any one of you would like to speak to me directly I will talk to you. Please call within the next 30 mins and I will be available to answer.

    Thank you,
    Janine

  103. JOINAA July 1, 2010 at 11:48 am #

    Cosmic, I think you are being too kind. Even if a person signs up in ignorance, in the process of doing all the work needed just to list would have to get educated pretty fast. There is no excuse for a shop being around even for a few weeks without finding out what the site Terms of Use are.

    I know the city of Utica, too, and if there is more to that shop and its “problems” I hope someone who is nearby there now does some quick research and drops the dime. It would save me some trouble next month when I am up there myself.

    “Feets, Get to Steppin'”

  104. JOINAA July 1, 2010 at 11:49 am #

    YOu mean, you won’t be too busy with all you have to do to accommodate a friendly personal visit??????????????

    Say hello to Conklin Park, you can probably see it from your front window.

  105. detroit July 1, 2010 at 11:56 am #

    wahwah Says:
    July 1, 2010 at 8:56 am

    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6562913&page=1
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    lol – is anyone else anal like me – and hate it when people pop in on page 20 to respond to the OP without reading the thread???

    Like, with 20 pages, how do they even know if their ‘helpful answer’ hasn’t been given 30 times.

    So, with respect to the above godawful bridal shop – and all the clueless people popping in to say – ‘Oooh, aaaah, I wish I was a bride!’

    Are they just being ‘nice’? Or do they really think a giant, tacky, flamable pile of white polyester looks lovely? What are they, 4?

  106. detroit July 1, 2010 at 11:56 am #

    lol – I was wondering if anyone gave JK a ring-a-ling. If you do, say HI for me!

  107. JOINAA July 1, 2010 at 11:58 am #

    Why bother with the phone: a person needs to go there in person as invited!

  108. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 12:15 pm #

    Sorry, the assessor said she transposed your house number when she looked it up. So for that I apologize. Her fault, not mine.

    But when I went to Oneida County office, they could find no business certificate on file for you. No Chamber of Commerce membership, and the city told me Pleasant Street is a residential district and no businesses are allowed to operate from there. I checked with New Hartford and was told the same thing. No businesses allowed. Do you have a special permit?

    I found an old newspaper article for you that said you sell 12,000 handbags a year. The article said you had a shop at the mall.

    I would love to come to visit. I am curious because I couldn’t get a permit to operate a home buisness even with no employees because I live in a residential district. Is there some way to get a permit?

  109. Janine King July 1, 2010 at 12:18 pm #

    It’s been 30 minutes. Not one call. Interesting. Must get back to work.

  110. JOINAA July 1, 2010 at 12:22 pm #

    Why bother talking to you on the phone? Lying is easily done online or on the phone.
    Perhaps you are too busy creating all those thousands of things, taking care of elderly parents, or watching children to welcome visitors to your place of bizniss?

  111. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 12:23 pm #

    I can’t call right now because I’m at work but I would love to call you later to set up a time for a visit.

  112. uh-huh July 1, 2010 at 12:38 pm #

    So Janine you’re willing to answer questions in private if somebody will make a long distance phone, but not here?
    Sounds just like Etsy admin!

  113. uh-huh July 1, 2010 at 12:40 pm #

    omg I just created myself a new conspiracy

  114. Cosmic Yuk July 1, 2010 at 1:06 pm #

    Well Joinaa, I’m not sure I’m all that kind, I don’t read manuals either until I get stuck, lol. And I know I’m not the only one.

    Besides, when I did read the TOU I kind of skimmed the ‘what can be sold’ section since I had heard it was for handmade and the tagline at that time said ‘your place to buy all things handmade’. Because of the nature of what I make, I really didn’t imagine there would be anything there I wasn’t already complying with.

    I’m just thinking now with nothing obviously noting the handmadeness of the site and the frequently featured resellers on the front page and in the finds, it isn’t so far fetched that people automatically assume they are welcome when they aren’t.

  115. Andrea July 1, 2010 at 1:09 pm #

    I think someone needs to contact From Utica’s employers and let them know what they are doing on company time. Sorry Utica, you sound like a crazy person. It seems like there is always someone who likes to go to far, and you are about five minutes from “I know that picture is fake, because I’m looking in your bedroom window right now!”

  116. JOINAA July 1, 2010 at 1:11 pm #

    Oh, I agree with you wholeheartedly, Cosmic. Etsy would love to show off what is really handmade to the magazines etc that they drop their viral advertising into, but the real concept is that if someone can sell something like THAT then, I can, too.

    It’s easier to generate those $.20 listings when you are showing off the mundane to those who visit. In fact, Etsy has two marketting ploys:
    we are handmade
    we are cheap and easy
    Never mind that the two concepts are diametrically opposed to each other.

    They show off both– playing both ends against the middle.

  117. JOINAA July 1, 2010 at 1:14 pm #

    Andrea, are you trying to blow the whistle on the whistle blower?? Pa-leese.
    The only way to determine facts is to see them, taste them, hear them, and feel them for yourself. And take PHOTOS and a witness.
    I’d love to be independently wealthy so I could hop a plane and visit every damn Etsy shop that is suspect. What’s your stake in this?

  118. detroit July 1, 2010 at 1:15 pm #

    Andrea Says:
    July 1, 2010 at 1:09 pm

    I think someone needs to contact From Utica’s employers and let them know what they are doing on company time.
    _____________________________________________________

    And THAT wouldn’t be a creepy stalker thing to do at all!.

  119. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 1:21 pm #

    She made an offer to visit and I would like that.

    Andrea, you have no idea what I do for a living. Maybe checking out businesses to be sure they’re legit is what I do for a living.

    I came to this site on a tip from one of the generous readers/posters here who contacted me at my… JOB.

  120. Cosmic Yuk July 1, 2010 at 1:25 pm #

    I’m not sure what a home visit will accomplish. If (and I am not accusing) she is buying wholesale or making one bag to send overseas (or even to a local factory) to be manufactured, she’ll likely look like a small operation. Or her factory could be in a church basement or an old warehouse somewhere in a business district, but she is using her home address as her business one for ease of use, such as mail and whatnot.

  121. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    I am going to call her and if her offer is still open, I will go visit. I am not sure how she could have a permit in a residential district as I was told I couldn’t.

    If she really allows me to see her operation, then I’m sure I will be able to tell if she’s all legit. It seems like an awsul lot of bags for one or two people to make each year.

    Several others are looking into this too, as some others have been visiting city and county offices checking.

  122. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 1:32 pm #

    No one heard of her in the business district.

  123. Cosmic Yuk July 1, 2010 at 1:35 pm #

    Oh, From Utica, are you an undercover FBI agent? CIA? BBB? KGB?

    I’m teasing, so please don’t get offended.

    Man, if this blog isn’t proof enough that you’re better off keeping a low profile in the forums lest you be scrutinized under a microscope, I don’t know what is.

  124. From Utica July 1, 2010 at 1:47 pm #

    The “two seamstresses” must be on the payroll or have 1099’s issued each year. So there has to be a way to track this as a legit business.

    And I am certain no seller would try to pass off factory made as hand made.

  125. kitten July 1, 2010 at 2:38 pm #

    Andrea Says:

    I think someone needs to contact From Utica’s employers and let them know what they are doing on company time. Sorry Utica, you sound like a crazy person. It seems like there is always someone who likes to go to far, and you are about five minutes from “I know that picture is fake, because I’m looking in your bedroom window right now!”
    __________________________________

    The first thought that popped into my mind after reading the above was this person (Andrea) is crazy.

    Sounds like Andrea needs to step away from the computer and sleep off whatever it is she’s taking/drinking.

  126. Disappointed July 1, 2010 at 2:52 pm #

    It really carries all the flags of a “handmade” business having all of the basic work done by outsourcing then adding a few quick details and finishing touches. This seems to become the norm for most handmade business models nowadays but it’s still mass production.

  127. wahwah July 1, 2010 at 3:23 pm #

    http://www.etsy.com/shop/extraseed

    http://fashionlovespeople.com/2010/06/17/extraseed-flats-handmade-in-ethiopia/

    Quote from the blog: “More shoes made in Africa! EXTRASEED‘s classic flats are handmade in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.”

    I’m sure they’re made by hand, but by how many people?

  128. JK July 1, 2010 at 3:41 pm #

    Andrea, this might be a real shock to you, but for some people their job *is* checking up on people who run businesses, looking for signs of fraud, illegal employment, compliance with safety regulations and other things. Surprising, I know!

  129. ohmeohmy July 1, 2010 at 4:22 pm #

    The web gets even more tangled…

  130. Andrea July 1, 2010 at 4:26 pm #

    Thanks for picking up on the irony of reporting someone for over-reporting. A++ detective work.

    I’m sorry, I think someone whose JOB it is to investigate law-breakers shouldn’t be posting on a blog. But if it really is your JOB, and you work for the city/county/state, you should have no issue posting your office phone number and name of your department.

    It’s very Ullja, who also said it was her JOB to investigate businesses.

  131. detroit July 1, 2010 at 5:25 pm #

    You’re welcome Andrea. I’m glad I could point it out to you!

  132. JOINAA July 1, 2010 at 6:20 pm #

    Andrea, what’s your stake in this subject?

  133. PussDaddy July 1, 2010 at 6:52 pm #

    I don’t see why anyone should call this person if they can talk to her for free. Besides the question is is she a shiller, and the answer is oviously yes. However I don’t agree with people calling people’s places of employment and stuff. It might behoove people to remember that your own name can be plugged into the White Pages on line and it will give you all the names and addresses you have used going back so many years, along with any of your relative’s availabe, not to mention one only needs to sign up as a buyer and fake buy something on etsy to get your name and address and I honestly don’t think people really want people coming to their house and phoning them or visiting or phoning their places of employment so why would they do it to someone else?

  134. PussDaddy July 1, 2010 at 7:03 pm #

    Also I want to say that I have tossed out comments myself about how people should buy from these fuck ups and then publish their names, however this is just blowing and letting off steam and I would never actually do it, and I hope no one else would actually do it either. The only way I would do it is if I personally bought from one of them and had a personal stake in it because then I would consider it my opinion of having done business with the person and it would be an event that actually happened. I wouldn’t just do it to ruin their personal lives or mess with their personal lives or family or livlihood or anything.

  135. SimonJester July 1, 2010 at 7:49 pm #

    PussDaddy, I’ve been meaning to ask this for a while and since you brought it up, I’ll ask here (even though it is off-topic, sorry everyone!!). I’ve never seen the seller’s address when I buy, at what point do you get it? The Paypal receipt sometimes (not always) has their actual name, but other than that I don’t see any personal info. Am I missing something? Not that I care, I’m just curious because I’ve heard it mentioned before and I have looked at all the emails I get when I purchase, and I just don’t see it.

  136. RocksInMySocks July 1, 2010 at 9:10 pm #

    SImon, it’s optional to show it on a paypal receipt but once you get a package, the return address label should show it.

  137. SimonJester July 2, 2010 at 2:37 am #

    Thanks, Rocks, that’s what I thought. So “fake buying” like PD said wouldn’t necessarily give out that kind of info. It made me a little paranoid thinking that it would. I should go check my Paypal settings, I guess. If I annoy someone enough in the forums that they decide to stalk me, I want them to have to make a *real* purchase in order to get my address.

  138. SimonJester July 2, 2010 at 2:54 am #

    OH DUH. If they get it on a Paypal receipt, that means they’ve paid. Wow I’m kind of dumb this morning.

    Maybe Etsy used to give out that info but don’t any more, due to NPB?

  139. Blue Kitty July 2, 2010 at 3:13 am #

    If you accept any payment that is sent by mail your address will show to a purchaser (including malicious purchaser) on Etsy but not if you only accept paypal.

  140. SimonJester July 2, 2010 at 4:23 am #

    Ohhhhhhh… of course! Thanks Blue Kitty! That makes perfect sense, and makes me very glad that I do not accept cash payments. Although in my policies I do say that I *might* if the buyer contacts me first… I may change that!

    Sorry for going off topic, everyone!

  141. JOINAA July 2, 2010 at 8:08 am #

    (that JK address is a very posh one: lawyers, doctors, politicians….not your usual address for a biz. Utica is a very small town)

  142. detroit July 2, 2010 at 1:11 pm #

    JOINAA Says:
    July 2, 2010 at 8:08 am

    (that JK address is a very posh one: lawyers, doctors, politicians…
    __________________________________________

    Well, she’s rich from all the bags she sells……

    ….to herself! Ha ha!

  143. PussDaddy July 2, 2010 at 9:58 pm #

    My bad. I thought you got the address just by buying. I think maybe on ebay you might? Since you get a paypal invoice?

  144. PussDaddy July 2, 2010 at 10:01 pm #

    Say you just didn’t pay, couldn’t you go to your purchases and click the invoice to proceed to pay and get the address? I’m not sure.

  145. SimonJester July 3, 2010 at 6:30 pm #

    That’s what I was trying to figure out, PD. It seems that the address is viewable by the buyer only if the seller accepts payments that need to be mailed. But addresses are not viewable if the seller accepts Paypal only. And it doesn’t automatically show on the Paypal receipt either, although I think that a seller can optionally choose to have it show (not sure). I know that some Paypal receipts I have gotten have had more information than others.

  146. Call Out Grrl July 4, 2010 at 1:35 am #

    Buyers can see the seller’s address IF the seller sends the buyer an invoice AND chooses to include address and/or telephone details.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    As an aside, I’m not sure that Janine King gets the point. This isn’t about her bags being handmade. Personally, I think too many people are involved in their production to count as handmade, but Etsy’s rules allow collectives, etc., so we can’t really argue that point.

    The issue is SHILLING. We have a seller who has openly admitted to shilling. And nothing has been done, short of closing the shilling account. I fail to see how that’s fair, especially as Etsy has (and will continue to) shut down other sellers for far less.

    I suppose the bigger issue is the total lack of consistency from Etsy. Apparently it’s okay to shill (and admit it!) as long as you’re a high volume seller. Right, Etsy?

  147. Amused July 4, 2010 at 2:55 am #

    Money, money, money!

  148. notvintage July 4, 2010 at 5:51 am #

    the address comes from a simple google search. Plus, JK GAVE the address in this thread.

  149. SimonJester July 4, 2010 at 5:52 am #

    Thanks for that info about the address, Callout Grrl.

    To your second point, I don’t believe that JKD qualifies as a collective. Some of the people who work on her items are employees; they are not collaborative artists, and their involvement goes beyond shop management help. However, employees *are* allowed under the production assistance rules, BUT under those rules “an assistant or third-party vendor’s involvement may not comprise a majority share of a handmade item’s creation.” So yes, we can argue that point, and that is an issue that affects a lot more people than shilling. Individual sellers have to compete with her mini-factory every single day.

    I admit that I am torn on the level of punishment for shilling. It is true that other shops have been closed for less.

    And yeah, Etsy’s inconsistency is the biggest problem of all. So many issues trace their roots back to that.

  150. notvintage July 5, 2010 at 4:36 am #

    This seem to be a war: great fun to watch!!
    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6565789

    I hope they screw each other’s pooches.

  151. notvintage July 5, 2010 at 4:37 am #

    This seem to be a war: great fun to watch!!
    I hope they screw each other’s pooches.
    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6565789

  152. wahwah July 5, 2010 at 7:35 am #

    Of course artisanwoodcrafting is right in there with “if it’s on etsy, it must be legal”.

  153. Call Out Grrl July 5, 2010 at 7:51 am #

    Well lookie here! Seems like they’e got it right in the UK!

    (a guy might be going to jail or paying a huge fine for SHILLING)

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article7103296.ece

  154. bellacruz July 5, 2010 at 7:59 am #

    scroll down on that link

  155. notvintage July 5, 2010 at 8:30 am #

    artisan woodcrafting is a joik or a suckup, can’t tell which. (would it matter?)

  156. notvintage July 5, 2010 at 8:32 am #

    yep: http://www.etsy.com/shop/idea2lifestyle again.
    SUCK IT!

  157. notvintage July 5, 2010 at 8:34 am #

    Callout Girl–
    Interesting. The stakes are higher when it is an auction; that’s real fraud for sure. The Etsy shilling is assholish more than anything else. I am loving the mass-produced wars on Etsy. The shops concerned are still churning out the crap, on and off the forums.
    Etsy staff sucks.

  158. Lisa July 5, 2010 at 12:34 pm #

    With all her extra time…cough cough…Janine has opened another Etsy shop. It’s still empty, but can’t wait to see what’s offered, and who’s buying ! (Her new shop name is listed in her profile) Funny, I didn’t see that the other day when I read it.

  159. wahwah July 5, 2010 at 7:02 pm #

    ScrapBasketBags. Wow, she must have so much free time in between sewing those other bags that she has to start a new line.

  160. Anon E Mouse July 6, 2010 at 8:28 am #

    It was all a great fuss come to naught, since Janine King still has her store on Etsy, as well as on Artfire.

  161. Anon E Mouse July 6, 2010 at 8:35 am #

    well.. this was a fun read.

    http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6562176

    —————————

    No kidding! Closed with the usual scolding to report the shop instead of calling it out in the forums. Of course the reseller is still open for business, despite the proof links posted right in the thread that they are resellers.

  162. Mary July 6, 2010 at 8:13 pm #

    This topic is interesting and upsetting. I’ve been clicking on some of the (now closed) threads and it certainly does appear that Etsy doesn’t quite care to get rid of the high volume resellers as that would be cutting their profit. It’s sad.

    Has anyone ever considered a class action suit? I have no idea how one would go about it though.

  163. Angel July 7, 2010 at 11:02 pm #

    I’m of the firm belief that when a seller starts skirting one rule, they start skirting others. Is this the first or the fourteenth or the thirtieth?

    Reading the old thread actually made me chuckle (I wonder where so what? is now….) (boy, I swear a lot). I suppose the whole “too big for Etsy” can finally be put to rest. The answer is “never was fucking Etsy to begin with”.

  164. Janine King July 10, 2010 at 8:02 am #

  165. Bedazzled VONdom July 10, 2010 at 7:08 pm #

    roflmao!

    Janine, did your lawyer receive his degree from The Turnip Truck School of Law?

  166. Bedazzled VONdom July 10, 2010 at 7:36 pm #

    “Moreover, on the same day that you participated in defaming me you contacted me under false pretenses asking to be allowed into my home.”

    “If “From Utica” would like to come to my house and meet me and then report back to you all that will be fine.”

    Wah wah waaahhhh, hep me, Meester Poweeceman! Pweople are being MWEAN to me on the intranets!

    You’re dumber than a bag of hammers, Janine.

  167. detroit July 10, 2010 at 8:15 pm #

    Ahhh. ECO – the gift that keeps on giving.

    JKDesigns, you know……well, um never mind.

  168. detroit July 10, 2010 at 8:24 pm #

    I’ll try again. I was laughing too hard.

    Well, JK Designs. You do know that drawing further attention to this thread, wherein it’s revealed you shilled for your own store….

    Well, this isn’t helping things.

    At least, if I were you, that’s what I’d think.

    But, if you want to keep making yourself look sillier and sillier, and keep this thing going, we’re totally along for the ride.

  169. wahwah July 11, 2010 at 5:47 am #

    Did you ask your lawyer about your shilling practices? I’m sure you have more than one shilling ID.

  170. Fed UP July 11, 2010 at 6:29 am #

    Okay, if someone is really talking about coming to your house, that’s messed up.

    But for real? You really handmade all those bags yourself? Or with a very small amount of help? For REAL? Don’t kid yourself. And those shilling accounts? Automatically discounts anything else you have to say because you’ve already proven that you’re a LIAR. I would never buy from you now, and I’ve posted online to warn others. Etsy should remove your ass, but since they won’t – don’t worry honey, karma’s a bitch 😉

  171. uh-huh July 11, 2010 at 6:38 am #

    So Janine gives her home address here, flat out invites “From Utica” to come to visit her…… and then contacts the police because she’s scared?
    Brilliant!

  172. wahwah July 11, 2010 at 7:02 am #

    I’m always suspect when sellers receive long, glowing feedback from newbie buyers but don’t reciprocate.

  173. Bedazzled VONdom July 11, 2010 at 9:31 am #

    I love JoinAA’s response.

    “I’m terrified.”

    lol!

  174. JOINAA July 11, 2010 at 12:23 pm #

    She misquoted me. I said, “I’m scared.” I wonder why she would need to change the wording? She’s a bad, bad person and if she can afford to hire a lawyer like she says she is going to, she is a bad person with lots of money.
    She is threatening me, and I am “scared” and sarcastic, not “terrified”. Bring it on.

  175. zizi36 July 11, 2010 at 1:39 pm #

    So if you want to shill…..,,l etsy couldnot shut you down without risking a huge lawsuit . Since they only enforce the rule if you don’t make them money.

  176. Bedazzled VONdom July 11, 2010 at 1:55 pm #

    “I wonder why she would need to change the wording? ”

    Wow, so you mean that the shiller scumbucket who lies about the number of people she employs is also capable of altering an email exchange?

    Color me shocked!

  177. Blue Kitty July 11, 2010 at 3:46 pm #

    Bedazzled VONdom Says:
    July 10, 2010 at 7:08 pm
    roflmao!

    Janine, did your lawyer receive his degree from The Turnip Truck School of Law?

    ……………………………

    So relieved I have a rule not to be eating or drinking while reading this blog

  178. JohnCock July 17, 2010 at 3:41 pm #

    Vintage Janine King lol

    http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/clo/1827675705.html

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: