OOAK Logos?

6 Jun

Should it be allowed to be called OOAK when it’s a stock image? Discuss.

MorningstarArtistry

NOT OOAK image, it’s istock images
NOT OOAK image, it’s istock images
NOT OOAK image, it’s istock images

http://www.vectorious.net/img13031.search.htm

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39 Responses to “OOAK Logos?”

  1. Fake June 6, 2011 at 8:33 pm #

    Uh oh, one of the designs has been removed already.

  2. kandidoutter June 6, 2011 at 9:40 pm #

    That stock image site does allow the artwork to be used for logos – so it’s legal for her to sell them – but I don’t think she should have used the term “one of a kind” because technically it’s not.

    I don’t think it’s just this shop’s fault though – I believe it’s just an awareness issue – most designers on Etsy just see the top sellers having this in the title and listing description so they put it into theirs too. I’m not sure most even understand exactly what it means. Maybe instead of calling out specific shops we can just discuss what constitutes “OOAK” and what doesn’t. Then as Etsy sellers we can come away better informed and in turn better serve our customers and the rest of Etsy for that matter with accurate titles and descriptions.

    So I ask (without any ruthless call-outs please) for examples of what kind of designs would warrant a “OOAK” description and what kind would not (describe it – don’t link to a particular item – let’s not hurt anyone that may not be aware).

  3. toastycrackers June 6, 2011 at 10:06 pm #

    I’m sure anyone buying a logo on Etsy does NOT think the “designer” used a stock image and laid text on top of it.

    Also, just because this shop says the logo will only be sold once and is OOAK, that does not mean some other “designer” is unable buy the same stock image and use it for another shop’s logo.. or brochure.. or website.. etc.

  4. ThankYouGoogle June 6, 2011 at 11:04 pm #

    What does the buyer expect to get for $30?!
    They can’t expect a lot – because that’s not a lot! Sheesh!

    When it comes to hiring a designer buyers must keep in mind the “unattainable project triangle”. They need to think of their project as a triangle of good, fast, and cheap. You can achieve two of the three points of the triangle, but can never achieve all three without one suffering. This leaves you with three options for your project:

    1. Quick design, with high quality, but it will not be cheap.
    2. Quick design that is cheap, but will not be high quality.
    3. High quality design that is cheap, but will take a long time.

    Click here for more about the unattainable project triangle:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_triangle

  5. MadelM June 7, 2011 at 2:07 am #

    I’ve been in the design business for a long time now and from what I know 99% of sites selling vectors do not allow using their vector graphics for logos. The extended license (that allows you to sell items like t-shirts, mugs, pendants incorporating the vector graphics) is extremely expensive, like 250$ per illustration. If you want to sell digital copies of your design incorporating the vector graphics you have to pay more or less the same.

    I’ve noticed many Etsy designers who use vectors from these sites as OOAK logos and OOAK Etsy sets…. I wonder if they all bought the extended licenses….

  6. VH McKenzie June 7, 2011 at 4:34 am #

    Some of the vectors shown here are under an “extended” license which reads, in part:

    “You do not have rights to use or modify any of our vectors:

    – redistribute/resell/lease/license/sub-license or offer free downloads of our vectors in their present form or in a modified form to any third party…..”

    I’d say that precludes doing exactly what this shop is doing, no?

  7. oneangrybird June 7, 2011 at 6:58 am #

    “what kind of designs would warrant a “OOAK” description and what kind would not (describe it – don’t link to a particular item – let’s not hurt anyone that may not be aware).”

    um, a- one – of- a- kind item typically warrants a OOAK description!

    if it can be made again…. it’s not one of a kind.

    If sellers need to be trained to list correctly or accurately they need to WAIT to join Etsy until they learn how to do it right.

    If you don’t know or aren’t sure or just don’t give a damn then for the love of gawd, don’t list it!

    What about “hurting” the buyer????
    Why is it ok for ignorant or unscrupulous sellers to use the excuse – I wasn’t aware or I didn’t know or everyone else is doing it!

    This level of justification is sickening and does as much damage to conscientious sellers as it does unwary buyers.

    I am more than happy to help anyone BEFORE they do something stupid – it’s the ‘jump now and ask for help or advise later’ that irritates me to no end.

    I do not agree that we are here to sweetly show people who obviously don’t know or care how to sell something AFTER they’ve made mistakes and subjected the buying public to their ignorance.
    You list it – you are accountable!

  8. Toaster June 7, 2011 at 7:48 am #

    “Should it be allowed to be called OOAK when it’s a stock image?”

    No, because it’s not. There’s nothing to keep me from buying the same image, using the same font, and slapping the same logo together. Not that I would, since my designs are ACTUALLY one-of-a-kind.

    Speaking of fonts, I wonder if the ones she’s using are licensed for commercial use.

  9. Dun June 7, 2011 at 8:12 am #

    No.

  10. christine June 7, 2011 at 8:42 am #

    as a logo designer myself. I applaud you for doing this. Thank you for bringing to light what i have been saying for years! I do use my wacom tablet to draw all my own designs, and I do sell on etsy, so competing with the girls who can whip out 20 designs using clip art and royalty free graphics has been tough, and yes I have competitive pricing, so not all etsy designers are copycat “artists” some of us are just doing what we love 🙂

    p.s. Do you take submissions? I would love to send you lots more!

  11. ThankYouGoogle June 7, 2011 at 8:50 am #

    So is it just the term “OOAK” or “One of a Kind” that is the issue? Or are there other descriptions that are just as misleading? How about “Hand-drawn” (if they are not)?
    Any other tags or titles you can think of that should be on the hot-list of no no’s?

  12. Makesyouwonder June 7, 2011 at 9:06 am #

    How can this be listed as OOAK for $150??!
    It is a clipart frame!
    http://www.etsy.com/listing/74091751/exclusive-ooak-premade-logo-and

    It’s also a copy of this:
    http://www.etsy.com/transaction/47176725

  13. kirsten June 7, 2011 at 9:20 am #

    THIS IS MORNIGNSTAR ARTISTRY

    I have been informed I was mentioned in an earlier blog and was not going to respond but now that I am being highlighted I feel I must.

    First, the images referenced in my shop are part of a vector package that I purchased. Here is a section of the policies
    “Q: What can I do with the products bought from Designous.com?
    A: You are allowed to use our artwork in your commercial projects or designs like: Logos, t-shirt designs, websites, posters, digital art, etc… You can use all our artwork for your printed products(clothing, posters…), as a part of your design.”

    It is 100% legal and I make a point to only incorporate graphics that allow this. I have worked in the corporate setting as a brand specialist and pride myself on taking the time to research and produce products that will not have licensing issues.

    I think the real discussion is the definition of OOAK. When I started this I struggled with this description. I looked around etsy and other places and found that the norm for OOAK premade logos matched the description of a one of a kind based on the way it is incorporated with the text, color changes and other aspects. I do see how the regular buyer might have a different assumption so I am in the process of removing the OOAK tag/description in my shop. I am doing this to err on the side of caution but fully stand by my shop and my work previously.

    Secondly, I want to give a reality check that is addressed in an earlier comment. Some designers, like myself, provide services on etsy to give small business owners (particularly stay at home mothers) an option to start up and market their companies for a low cost. The average graphic designer charges $45-$75 an hour, we provide quality designs for much less. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you want to have an affordable logo option then it might have to incorporate an element of a stock image. I also do freelance design outside of etsy and charge an hourly rate that matches the norm. Most full time designers will not touch a logo design for less than $500 for a small business and I have been involved in a logo design for a corporate business that was at a cost of $20,000. I have struggled with etsy and if it is worth the time/benefit but I have continued because I have worked with some wonderful clients that really benefited from this option.

    Just as a side note, I appreciate the discussion and clarification of OOAK standards but do not appreciate the name-calling and mean-spirited nature of many of the posts previously on this blog. I think we are all just trying to do our best and provide the best option for our clients.

  14. megansbeadeddesigns June 7, 2011 at 9:23 am #

    OOAK isn’t fuzzy. It stands for one-of-a-kind and means exactly that. There should only be one of said design, ever. The usage of stock photos makes this not the case.

    Other descriptive terms, such as using “hand-drawn” can become more fuzzy if the writer of the description intends to mean that he/she used sketchy photos and illustrator brushes to make the artwork appear hand-drawn… etc… One would have to look at the word in context to see if it is being utilized in a misleading way or not.

  15. Life During Wartime June 7, 2011 at 10:13 am #

    How can any English-speaking artist, artisan, or designer not know what OOAK means?

    A rhetorical question, because I know I have read a bunch of threads in the Forums where the OP wants to know ‘what is OOAK’.

    OOAK is not what the shops called out are doing.

    Unfortunately, Etsy is a sloppy environment in terms of professionalism. The callout here is just a specific case of the overall tone set by the founders, investors, and staff of Etsy where sellers are encouraged to bend to the breaking point all kinds of standards. From calling images with stock graphics OOAK, to misrepresenting reseller goods as handmade, to the whole ‘collective’ definition issue, to the misrepresentation in calling items ‘vintage’ that aren’t. The crowning glory being the merchandising report that literally instructs sellers to mislabel (ie, misrepresent) their items in titles and tags. Etsy has deliberately made the site a comfy home for all sorts of deceptive selling…which is a horrible thing for the shops who are doing everything right.

    OOAK has to be an original work that will not be duplicated and sold again.

  16. Sammy June 7, 2011 at 10:56 am #

    It’s not the buyer’s fault that a designer lists a logo for $30 and calls it OOAK. What does a buyer expect to get for $30? Well, they expect, when something is actually listed as OOAK, to get a one of a kind logo that they won’t see someone else using a close variation of somewhere down the line. It’s not their fault it’s listed for $30. If it’s not one of a kind, don’t list it that way. If it IS one of a kind and worth more than $30, list it for more.
    My takeaway from all this lately: never, ever buy graphic design services on Etsy. That is unfortunate, considering there are likely SOME honest people there, but you know what they say about bad apples.

  17. WhoreForColor June 7, 2011 at 10:57 am #

    http://www.etsy.com/shop/Sevinoma?ref=seller_info

    Is it possible that this shop is handmade? The seller claims that there are only 2 people in this shop, but….over 400 items, and look at them.

  18. Sammy June 7, 2011 at 11:12 am #

    Oh, and in my view, you can’t call something one of a kind if the one of a kind-ness is achieved mostly through slapping unique text on an image that will be recycled into another logo next week. That also goes for some kind of border or ornamentation around the main image. I’m pretty sure Pepsi (for example), who thought they were paying for a OOAK logo design, would be a little pissed if they saw their design firm selling the Pepsi logo with someone else’s text and a frilly border, because, hey, now it’s a different OOAK logo. When we said it’s OOAK, we meant we’d never sell it to anyone else with “Pepsi” printed on it, yaknow?

    I don’t see anything wrong with using images properly purchased and licensed for reuse in logos. But the seller needs to be very, very upfront about that in the listing, saying something along the lines of “at this price point, you should be aware this is a premade image purchased for use in logos. There is a chance you may see this logo reused in someone else’s logo at some point.”

  19. Life During Wartime June 7, 2011 at 11:22 am #

    I have a good memory for images and slogans. But I have to say that none of the logos (or banners or avatars) made with variations on stock images are in any way memorable. I would say that 99.9% of the banners on Etsy are not memorable in any way unless the person’s work is shown there, and I liked what they do.

    I am notorious for throwing away business cards because I can’t recall what exactly I bought from that business. If you are starting out as a small creative business, the best thing you can do is have your work incorporated into your promotional materials. Or if you are something of a character in person, use a photo of yourself doing your thing. All this birdie and tree ruffled crap has as much recognition value as air glued to paper. This is just my opinion, of course.

  20. Life During Wartime June 7, 2011 at 11:38 am #

    Sevinoma is a ‘charm on a chain’ jewelry seller. Simple assembly of two pieces, like hanging a charm on a chain, is considered to be handmade jewelry on Etsy. It isn’t possible to prove that a seller, no matter where they ship from, isn’t hanging factory made charms on factory made chains with their own two hands. Or with the help of a friend.

    Personally, I think Sevinoma is an online outlet for a Chinese jewelry factory but I can’t prove it. Even finding identical pieces on Ebay and in a half dozen other Etsy shops proves nothing about who assembled a charm on a chain. Etsy jewelry shops show lots of similar or identical assembled pieces. Sometimes multiple shops are using the same photos.

    Sure, this is discouraging to people who design and assemble pieces with commercial components that show more originality. But really Etsy cannot establish who makes such simple pieces. If Sevinoma was claiming to handmake the charms, that would be another issue.

  21. marie June 7, 2011 at 12:09 pm #

    i just want to say that there are some of us graphic designers on etsy that DO NOT use stock graphics or resell other designers work (heck, i don’t even resell my own work). i have been copied by some “designers” but have taken the high road and just upped my game. please know there are reputable designers on etsy that do draw their graphics. i price my logos based on the time i spend on them (i can draw a camera and type out a name in 1/2 an hour. so, while my fee averages per hour may be less then what some designers charge, i do it because it helps my family, i get to make money while at home and I LOVE drawing!! i have reported some graphic stealers to etsy, but etsy just ignores them.

    maybe it would be nice if along with your call out on the “bad guys” you can also highlight the good guys (and gals) whose stores you have gone through and can attest to the fact that we dont resell clip art… or other stores who truly sew and sell vintage… so maybe a little good with the bad? just a thought 🙂 etsy isn’t all bad apples.. some of us are pretty good and ethical!

  22. Life During Wartime June 7, 2011 at 1:36 pm #

    Marie, I hear what you’re saying. But I have a hard time rating anyone selling on Etsy as a sure thing ‘good guy’.

    If you are following the rules in your own shop but feel it is okay to include resellers, tag or title stuffers, category abusers in the Treasuries you make if it will help you get your Treasury on the FP, are you a ‘good guy’? If you are in a Team related to what you sell, and your Team includes blatant rule breakers, are you a ‘good guy’?

    Every day I see items on the FP that shouldn’t even be for sale on Etsy, let alone given such a promotional boost. The Treasury wasn’t curated by Etsy.

    Most of the shops called out here for actual rule breaking (rather than iffy use of terms like OOAK) are on Teams and have been often Circled and Hearted. It’s just darned difficult for me to not see ‘good guy’ sellers who support rule breakers as not being part of the problem.

  23. Fake June 7, 2011 at 2:02 pm #

    http://www.etsy.com/shop/Sevinoma?ref=seller_info

    Is it possible that this shop is handmade? The seller claims that there are only 2 people in this shop, but….over 400 items, and look at them.
    ________________________________

    Nothing in that shop is handmade – it’s a classic case of ‘fix the pendant to the chain’ and call it handmade according to Etsy’s TOUs.

  24. Fake June 7, 2011 at 2:05 pm #

    How can this be listed as OOAK for $150??!
    It is a clipart frame!
    http://www.etsy.com/listing/74091751/exclusive-ooak-premade-logo-and

    It’s also a copy of this:
    http://www.etsy.com/transaction/47176725
    ____________________________________

    Style Me Sweet has been called out here before. Here’s the link:

    https://etsycallout.wordpress.com/?s=style+me+sweet+design&submit=Search

  25. VH McKenzie June 8, 2011 at 5:04 am #

    Kirsten (morningstar artistry) quoted her source site:
    Q: What can I do with the products bought from Designous.com?
    A: You are allowed to use our artwork in your commercial projects or designs like: Logos, t-shirt designs, websites, posters, digital art, etc… You can use all our artwork for your printed products(clothing, posters…), as a part of your design.”

    _________________________________________
    But you are RE-SELLING those designs which, according to the terms of the Extended License is NOT permitted.

    You are not using the designs yourpurchase for your own logo, tee shirt, website, etc. – you are RE SELLING THEM.

    I think you should re-read the terms of the extended license and re-think what you are doing…………

  26. Yaya June 8, 2011 at 5:49 am #

    Someone needs to school these ladies in the rules.

    http://www.etsy.com/shop/SecondsAnyone?ref=seller_info

  27. WhoreForColor June 8, 2011 at 7:06 am #

    Some of these pieces involve more work that just putting a charm on a chain:

    http://www.etsy.com/listing/74965036/punk-style-c-double-circle-rings

    And look at this necklace for $1.50. $1.50? That’s crazy…if it’s $1.50, what do the materials cost? 15 cents? And what about the labor? It has to be a factory.
    No sane person would charge prices like these. The shipping is $6.00!

    http://www.etsy.com/listing/75463461/cute-peacock-necklace

    I was in a treasury with this shop – that’s how I found them.

  28. kirsten June 8, 2011 at 7:12 am #

    VH McKenzie

    Please check your facts before accusing me of doing something unethical. I have already contacted designous.com previously to verify that they can be used in logos I create and sell for clients. The answer is yes they can. Here is their email if you would like to contact them to verify:
    info@designious.com.

    Sincerely, Kirsten (Morningstar Artistry)

  29. marie June 8, 2011 at 9:09 am #

    ok, but just because you can, doesn’t mean you should!!

    as a graphic artist myself, i am highly OFFENDED when on occasion, i have been shown a graphic and asked if i can replicate it. i am a graphic designer, not a graphic buyer or graphic copier, etc. buying a graphic and adding a name to it does not a graphic designer make.

    as a “graphic designer” why would you even WANT to use someone else’s work? that is you yourself saying that you are not talented enough to draw your own graphics. if you call yourself a graphic designer in your profile, you should actual be a graphic designer, not the middle man, ya know?

    as a mom, especially in these times, i know times are tough and people do what they have to do, but i think selling clip art as “OOAK” logos is not only cheating your customers out of a genuine “OOAK” piece of artwork, but cheating yourself. would you let your kid buy a cook report off the web and then write their name on it and turn it in as their own work? to me, that is relative to what you all are doing.

    while it may take longer to do your own work, it is worth it. i promise you. trust yourself. if you have the eye to add the text, t ofind graphics you love, try and draw them 🙂

    to have customers tell you how beautiful their logo is and to know YOU created it, is fulfilling. go buy illustrator, a good book, a wacom tablet and sit down at your pc and go for it. you might just surprise yourself 🙂

  30. marie June 8, 2011 at 9:11 am #

    oops – mean “book” report, not “cook”

  31. Life During Wartime June 8, 2011 at 9:36 am #

    YaYa, SecondsAnyone is a member of two teams. I would have thought some more Etsy savvy teammate would have mentored this shop. Guess not.

    Because Seconds needs mentoring, mostly. All the patterns should be listed as Supplies and the knock off purses are a no-no.

    What I want to know is: how does a shop with so many obvious TOU violations get accepted into two huge teams?

  32. Dun June 8, 2011 at 10:23 am #

    Shit, this is why I design all my own labels, business cards, logos etc. “Methinks thou dost protest too much”, Morningstar.

  33. toastycrackers June 8, 2011 at 1:17 pm #

    I feel like there are many people that would not get worked up over this issue, because they in fact think much of graphic design is clip art slightly edited by someone else. It stinks! This is why I’d never even think of selling my designs on Etsy.

    It’s depressing what stuff like this has done to the image of graphic design as a profession.

  34. Ladies...come on now June 9, 2011 at 1:10 pm #

    Methinks some of y’all have to get off of your high horse.

    She’s just defending herself on an open forum.

    She’s addressed her terminology “oversight” in using OOAK, which is the whole point of this post. This isn’t Madison Avenue, folks, it’s Etsy, and you get what you pay for. No offense.

    Callout is a great site with often good dialogue, but it can get so unnecessarily mean at times. Sheesh.

  35. hum June 10, 2011 at 1:25 pm #

    Our observations and attitudes about this specific subject – nobody here is on a “high horse” except the seller who’s been called out – don’t have anything to do with this issue. It’s about having principles, honesty and integrity.

    The seller seems to be saying that she’s deliberately offering dumbed-down logos and targeting moms with small businesses. Way to denigrate an entire demographic, lol!

    True, people’s tastes vary widely, but taste has nothing to do with taking advantage of specific groups whether it be brides, moms or pet owners.

    I’ve been a designer for 20+ years and never, ever EVER have I (nor have 99% of legitimate graphic designers) thought to offer premade logos without knowing anything about the business target audience, the person behind the business, or without a continuous flow of communication during the design process.

    Maybe ‘Ive been wrong all these years, but my idea of a logo (and those of the international corporations and small homegrown businesses I’ve designed for) is the classic definition of logo and not something that looks like a simple (albeit pretty) label incorporating the persons whole name. No offense, but a frame with a name does not generally a logo make. At least, not in the traditional sense.

    I dunno, maybe I’m peeved at the use of the word “logo” in reference to what some of the sellers are hawking.

  36. ThankYouGoogle June 10, 2011 at 1:52 pm #

    Shut it

  37. ThankYouGoogle June 10, 2011 at 3:25 pm #

    lol

    Our observations and attitudes about this specific subject – nobody here is on a “high horse” except the seller who’s been called out – don’t have anything to do with this issue. It’s about having principles, honesty and integrity.

    The seller seems to be saying that she’s deliberately offering dumbed-down logos and targeting moms with small businesses. Way to denigrate an entire demographic, lol!

    True, people’s tastes vary widely, but taste has nothing to do with taking advantage of specific groups whether it be brides, moms or pet owners.

    I’ve been a designer for 20+ years and never, ever EVER have I (nor have 99% of legitimate graphic designers) thought to offer premade logos without knowing anything about the business target audience, the person behind the business, or without a continuous flow of communication during the design process.

    Maybe ‘Ive been wrong all these years, but my idea of a logo (and those of the international corporations and small homegrown businesses I’ve designed for) is the classic definition of logo and not something that looks like a simple (albeit pretty) label incorporating the persons whole name. No offense, but a frame with a name does not generally a logo make. At least, not in the traditional sense.

    I dunno, maybe I’m peeved at the use of the word “logo” in reference to what some of the sellers are hawking.

  38. prismacolor June 11, 2011 at 10:01 am #

    http://www.simplybloomphotography.com/

    the rip off, sans a moderately original name:

    http://www.etsy.com/listing/70920420/never-resold-premade-logo-watermark-for?ref=cat3_list_9

    Gotta love these so-called “artists.” The only art they know is the replication of others’ work.

  39. Ladies...come on now June 11, 2011 at 4:54 pm #

    I really do agree with much of what you’re saying, hum. My point was, I don’t really see how she’s being dishonest or shifty–perhaps lazy, at worst, and not deserving of all of this slack.

    You guys are possibly breaking incomes for families here. If I lost my Etsy income, there would be days that I would not be able to feed my family of 4. Respectfully guys, all I’m saying is, “tread lightly”, because nothing really ever dies on the internet.

    ThankYouGoogle: no, you “shut it”. lol. 🙂

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